A candid conversation with achievers across communities
Delayed but not an untimely Long Read
Moumita Das Roy
Auckland, May 26, 2023
What are the trials, tribulations, and triumphs of women of colour in the tech and startup space of New Zealand?
Moumita Das Roy, a marketing professional and an advocate for Diversity, Equity and Inclusion, speaks to three women in the tech industry. In her audio event with #WonderingMo, hosted on LinkedIn, she is in conversation with Ankita Dhakar, a Tech Startup Founder, Dil Khosa, a Tech Startup Advisor, Norie Ape, a Technology Explainer and briefly Priscilla Chand, a Digital Marketing Expert.
The starting point for careers
Moumita: What first sparked your interest in working in the tech industry?
Ankita: I came to study in New Zealand for my bachelor’s degree in business.
I started working for a company that was responsible for wiping out confidential customer information. One day, I got curious, thinking about what happens if the data gets into the wrong hands! I had presumed that cybersecurity is for enterprises, and big companies, and not for individuals or small companies.
I started researching. I found that a lot of companies do not have the resources to address cyberattacks. That is when I came up with the idea to start a security alert system to help startups to make sure that their web application is secure, so they are not worried about the security of their digital assets.
Moumita: You raise a valid point – addressing small businesses. You know, about 90% of New Zealand businesses are classified as small businesses. 42% of the working population works in startups and small business businesses. Great, you are focusing on that sector.
Dil: I felt early in my University days how life-changing research, technology and the power of knowledge can be. And a lot of it was in the academic space and I realised that it was important to commercialise to help humans do better, in an incremental way, or even in a disruptive way. That has always been my interest, and I have pivoted from one industry to another because each industry has its interesting innovations. What I do is translatable, in a lot of spaces in tech.
Norie: My journey to tech was eight years ago, I worked in a central government agency, and it was a secondment. My key driver was growing up in a very large family. I am number seven out of nine children, six are brothers. When I started my role, I would get frustrated with the various legislations and policies not being used or the technology I had to use. I wanted to go and sort it myself. I started figuring out how an end user would use a certain thing. What is the policy, and why it has been designed that way? I was not afraid to tell the developer if something was wrong and it needed to be fixed. After about 18 months, I was running cross-functional teams. The real reason that tech works is that it is a part of our lives. It is about making technology more human. For the last couple of years, I have been pushing to empower the women I work with, not only to strive to do more but to make sure to send the elevator back so that others can join too.
Skin Colour: The Imposter Syndrome
Moumita: In your experiences, does being a woman in your profession come with extra mental challenges? Is being a woman of colour make it even harder to be accepted and make breakthroughs?
Norie: The general challenge for a woman of colour is this notion of imposter syndrome. A lot of women tend to think that they must be more than 100% of the job description. What I often try to encourage my colleagues is, you barely need to be 50. I tell my Pasifika community that if you can run an annual performance with 30 children, and get them to recite, dance and sing in alignment, there is no reason that you cannot work in tech. Because what you have done is project management, stakeholder management, and risk management, all in an annual event, with no funding. So, you know how to manage a budget too. Yes, it is challenging, you are often the only female in the room. My advice to women who are young or changing careers is to believe in the things they can do and consider applying for attractive positions. To acknowledge, your male colleagues want your opinion too. And I always encourage women not to go to meetings to be somebody’s note taker, you take notes, for yourself, if they want notes, they make their own.
Dil: I wish I had more confidence earlier in my career because it would have helped me avoid a bunch of pain. I had trouble when I got out of the University. A University is more equitable in the way we work with our male counterparts. But in the working world, especially the startup world, I found it was a more patriarchal structure. In the tech entrepreneurship space, there are a lot of ways that men want us to behave in that structure. I tried to behave in that structure, I will talk like this and stand like that. I thought that would make them take me seriously. I was, unfortunately, pushed into the one making tea and writing notes. But over the years, I thought that is not me! I think that was my challenge, working with patriarchy. How to dismantle it, yet not change who I am. I am feminine and my voice is different but distinct. I have been told about my voice, and feedback from male colleagues. A strong voice meant you are a leader. All these definitions are made by men for men. I had a depressive bout because it is so hard to reconcile when you know you’re smart and have worked so hard to get there. There are levels of bias, more so for women of colour. I have learned to handle these better.
Ankita: When I started my business, I thought it would be easy. I thought people would show support, but that was not the case. I was reaching out to people, and making presentations, but even when I was invited as a speaker, people did not take me seriously.
I remember an incident where someone asked me who the owner of the company was. I said I am! And he asked me the same question three times. I repeated my answer thrice. You could be young or old, you could be female or non-binary, it does not matter, if you are passionate, you know what you are doing. In my case, cybersecurity is a male-dominated space. I continue to see people not taking me seriously. Someone even trolled me on LinkedIn. For a few months, I was not doing any business in New Zealand. Then suddenly I was announced as the young achiever award finalist. That gave me confidence. I stopped thinking about these trolls. I am still working on myself, to not think about things that are not in my control. I’m looking forward to knowing more about how to deal with it.
Moumita: You mentioned being trolled on LinkedIn. That is just socials, it is easy to turn off socials for a while. Go away. All of us do that from time to time. But how did you cope in real life? How did you come back?
Ankita: It was difficult. I was not just off LinkedIn. I would not go out. Someone from the same industry, a CXO (meaning any key position) of a company said to me that I was ‘uneducated,’ while calling myself an ‘expert.’ Yes, I am still learning and in the cybersecurity space, people who call themselves an expert, are learning too, because it is changing so fast. I spent a few months on myself reflecting on why I started it in the first place. I kept reminding myself why I started and that I was not answerable to anybody. We will come across these people, there will always be people pulling you down. They are insecure, they do not know how hard you are working. And it is unfortunate. You see these comments are directed more towards women of colour and in tech. I do not see these comments or questions being asked of a man. I hope that speaking more about it and sharing our journeys will bring changes.
Moumita: I am glad that we are talking about this today. We must find our communities, our tribe and help each other. As women, we must look out for one another, and lift each other up. Before I move on, I would like to acknowledge Priscilla Chand, another amazing woman of colour in tech, leading from the front and creating opportunities for women.
Do you have a story where you experienced discrimination?
Priscilla: I want to create more opportunities for women in technology and I am inclined to work with organisations that are driving change by recognising diverse talent and their skill sets. Not limiting themselves to this traditional thinking of culture fit! By not discriminating against talent for who they are irrespective of their gender or race.
Moumita: Let us share a few stories where we experienced discrimination.
Dil: I am originally from Malaysia. I grew up with at least four or five different races, all as friends. It was always a mixed culture. We moved to New Zealand quite late in my life, it was not my decision, our parents brought us here. I have faced microaggressions over the years. More so when you are an achiever. I have this example when I was speaking in a panel, sharing a story of securing investments and recruiting a board. There were other Kiwis with me too. After my talk, someone came up to me and said, great talk, where are you from? I said, I am from here, but I was born in Malaysia. They said your accent is so different, where is it from? I really did not have any idea, because in Malaysia, we grow up with different languages. You will see this in a lot of Southeast Asians, we consume a lot of American media, and when we speak English, it is very Americanised. 17 years in Malaysia, and then mixing with the Kiwi accent. I said, well it is a global accent!
I was at the panel talking about raising capital and growing a team but what concerned this person the most was my accent!
Moumita: I write about it on LinkedIn. The question of where you from are can make one feel you do not belong there. You are an outsider. How does it even matter where I am from if I do what I do well?
Norie: I moved to New Zealand when I was four years old. I grew up in New Zealand, and during the first month in a role, a colleague with 15 to 20 years of experience in tech who grew up in New Zealand and lived overseas, made the offhand comment, you speak good English as somebody from South Auckland. I still remember that conversation because a lot of New Zealanders are very ignorant of the casual racism that exists in our everyday conversations. And for me, I will not back down from a challenge when I have that many brothers. I asked, how am I supposed to talk? I also hear a lot of you do not look Samoan! How am I supposed to look other than human? I own my space. If you hear me say I am a unicorn, it is because in tech, how many women are there? 25% of the sector! In New Zealand, there are only 2.7% of techies of Pacific descent. I am 25% of 2.7! I will say to CIOs or other women that I meet, to use that as a strength, as an advantage. I am actively biased towards women in tech, I think we are better at it.
As Pacific people, we are not used to challenging our leadership directly, but I generally challenge male CIOs and remind them that they need to be better, otherwise, we will never get better.
Moumita: The example you shared of being from one part of New Zealand, a part of Auckland. You mentioned about casual racism and microaggressions, they make you feel you do not belong to a community. It exists even with people you are familiar with. I host an audio chat on another audio-only application. I have been interacting with this group for the past year. One of the speakers mentioned in the chat that they would prefer to talk to someone who is like them, someone whom they grew up with, who had a similar childhood. Now imagine a group of diverse Kiwis in a conversation, they know one another for the past year and a half. When I heard that, I immediately felt excluded. I was not born here, did not grow up here, and I do speak with their accent. These comments affect you immensely, more so if they are coming from people you’re familiar with.
Ankita, how did you start your business as an international student?
Ankita: I come from a family of business owners. Both my parents are. They have always advised me not to be one. My plan was to study, find a good job and settle down. Startups, and businesses in general, give an opportunity to meet many people. I am always talking to people who are creating something or working on something. I have a lot of respect for these people. I just enjoy what I do.
Moumita: Dil what prompted you to go on a sabbatical and how you are using this to enrich yourself? Tell us about the importance of taking a break because often we do not acknowledge we need to.
Dil: It all caught up to me, capitalism, patriarchy. I love working with women entrepreneurs, but the challenges we face are immense and sometimes traumatic, and I needed to emotionally recharge. But while I am recharging, I am delving into the world of art, it has always been my passion. I am learning modern art. I am applying it in some ways, where we have put up pieces of art from local artists who identify as women and it is become a workspace for anyone that has an idea, across the art or tech spectrum and wants to have a chat. It is important to recharge. We are not robots that keep going.
Moumita: I love Banksy’s quote, rest but do not quit. Norie, you spoke about the cultural context of being a Pasifika woman. What would you say to other women who are struggling to find their voice?
Norie: The one piece of advice I give is to ask. Reach out whether it is on LinkedIn or elsewhere. Connect with women at different stages of their careers. Women collaborate well. We communicate faster, network and do the Mahi. Reaching out, having that connection, and talking about different options and pathways and challenges that we face is the best way. It can be daunting to connect. When I am speaking to Pacific communities, I often remind them, our ancestors traversed the South Pacific, using the stars. Long before the Europeans could even get on a boat. It is not that you cannot do this, it is that you need to uncouple all the systemic training that has been wiped out of you when you go to school. New Zealand has just approved Matariki as a holiday from 2022. They apologised for the Dawn Raids to the Pasifika communities only last year. That is a lot of systemic trauma and takes a lot of work to unpack. My most pragmatic piece of advice is to reach out, ask for coffee and talk about your journey. Women of colour who are in tech, often have similar challenges. Find that Tech Auntie who is further up in their career and leverage off the common Māori, Pasifika social norms of having an older person giving advice. I also remember that it is not enough to be a unicorn in the room, you need to open and build the pipeline. We always hear the headline Tech for Good.
It is only good when there is more diversity in the room.
Moumita: Thank you Ladies, my favourite Disney Princess is Moana, she is curious, and a little scared, but does it anyways. She has moments of self-doubt but has great pride in being the person that she is.
If you enjoyed the conversation, do not forget to stop by in the comments section to share. Reach out to Moumita on https://www.linkedin.com/in/moumitadasroy/
About Moumita Das Roy
Moumita Das Roy is a cross-industry marketer with experience in Nonprofit, Media, Advertising, and Telecom and has worked in some iconic global organisations such as Ogilvy and BBDO in Advertising, The Walt Disney Company in Media and Virgin Mobile in Telecom.
In her current role in New Zealand, she manages the B2B marketing communications for the Dulux Group. She is also a trained tertiary educator and industry speaker.
Moumita is a LinkedIn enthusiast and a prolific content creator on the platform. She shares stories from her corporate world and her life in academia and presents them in a very real-world, relatable way.
Apart from work, she takes an avid interest in Travel, Volunteering and Diversity and Inclusion conversations. Having worked in multicultural work environments and through her travels across seven continents, she has unique stories to tell, in a very adaptive and versatile way.
Email: dasroymo@gmail.com
